On Displaying the Confederate Battle Flag
The Supremes are going to discuss whether displaying a confederate battle flag on your custom license plate is protected by free speech.
In 1980 when I went up north to school I had a Confederate battle flag on my wall. I keep calling it the battle flag because in fact the flag you are thinking about (the one on the Dukes of Hazard's car) is not actually the flag of the Confederate nation. Most folks could not describe the original Confederate flag under torture (here it is).
So the flag you are thinking about, and the Supremes are considering, was actually based on the battle flags of certain state militias, like that of Virginia and Tennessee. It was also used by the Confederate Navy, and was incorporated into a redesign of the official Confederate flag late in the war.
Anyway, there were a couple of reasons a young Texan might put up this flag in his northern dorm room. First, it is awesome looking. There are a lot of bad flags in the world, but this is a great-looking flag. Second, at the time it represented the southern pride of a lot of us who found ourselves displaced and living in that odd northeastern college culture. It never represented (at least at the time) anything racist for me. For southerners (many of us raised, without knowing it, on the Lost Cause school of Civil War historiography) it represented pride and pluck and scrappy determination.
Anyway, I don't remember getting any pushback on the flag at the time. Over the years, though, I came to recognize that the flag was seen by many as a symbol of racism. Part of that was my increasing awareness but a large part was shifts in society and its perceptions -- remember the Dukes of Hazard was a real, popular network show that could likely never get made today. I suppose I could have retained the flag as a symbol of what I thought it was a symbol for, and just ignored other peoples' opinion. But at some point, I realized that other peoples' good opinion of me had value and that I needed to acknowledge how they saw the flag and put it away in a box.
Which brings me back to license plates. If a state is going to create a license plate program where people can make statements with their license plates, then people should be able to make the statement they want to make. I know there are folks in the south who honestly still cling to the symbolism I used to attach to the Confederate battle flag. But let's leave those folks aside. Let's assume for a moment that everyone who wants to display this symbol on their car is a racist. Shouldn't we be thrilled if they want to do so? Here would be a program where racists would voluntarily self-identify to all as a racist (they would even pay extra to do so!) What would be a greater public service?
I make this same argument when people want to ban speakers from campus. If people are willing to come forward with evil thoughts and intentions and announce them publicly, why wouldn't we let them? It's is fine to want to eliminate evil from the Earth, but shilling banning hateful speech doesn't do this -- it only drives evil underground.
Postscript: I actually started thinking about this driving down I-40 from Knoxville to Nashville yesterday. In a bend in the road, on a hill, there is a large home. Their land goes right out to the bend in the highway, and on that bend they have put up a huge flag pole with a big Confederate battle flag. You can see it from miles in each direction. I didn't get a picture but there are plenty on the web. From searching for it, there are apparently similar installations on private land in other states. As I drove, having nothing else to do, I thought a lot about what message they were trying to send. Was it just southern pride? Were they really racists? If they weren't racists, did they know that many would think them as such? And if so, did they even care -- was this in fact just a giant FU?
Update: Fixed the typo in the last line. Did I mean chilling? Not even sure. Banning is what I meant.
}}} Can we even, as individuals, come up with an objective means to determining where that line is?
Sure. If I offend you, can I beat your head in for being an asshole who has no business in a polite society?
Pretty much ALL offense is this way today. Everything is about "me me me me".... I'm the only one whose feelings are important. If you offend me, then I get to tell you what to do to stop.
There is no public ACCEPTANCE any longer that we all have differences, that we all want different things, and that in any crowd of two, one of you may not like what the other is doing. And you have to ACCEPT that instead of dictate to others what THEY can do. Live with it. It's a matter of social behavior that you not impose your will on others over MINOR things.
THAT is the difference between now and the past. And who's behind it? The fucking BOOMERS, that's who.
Self-centered prick libtards.
*SIGH*. This world can only start to improve when that worthless fucklot gets the hell off this planet and goes off to the hell they belong in. >:-/
Indeed. It occurred mainly because of the election of Lincoln, who was a Republican, a party focused on ending slavery. If a different man had become PotUS, the issue would have continued to simmer.
That said, I consider this far more a matter of social lubrication -- people need to learn, anew, how to "Just Get Along", which, thanks to the @#$#@#@ boomers, is not going to happen soon. It starts with people NOT telling others how to behave in minor matters.
LOL. In Atlanta, they're all southern blacks. Atlanta is one of the few places in America where a white person can register as a minority.
So it's more of a mental disease than an invasion.
Cardinals==Reds==Leftists==Libtards.
I see what you did there :^D
It's still auspicious if you're Hindu or Jain. They don't use the red, white and black though.
@disqus_wGOv342RuE:disqus
Please stop posting Democrat/Progressive recruitment videos.
古池や蛙とびこむ水の音。
http://www.florida-scv.org/faf-tampa.html
古池や蛙とびこむ水の音。
#桜の鬼
#サムライ
#修験者
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvFEpdKb_AU
"I have killed many Mexicans; I do not know how many, for frequently I did not count them. Some of them were not worth counting. It has been a long time since then, but still I have no love for the Mexicans. With me they were always treacherous and malicious." (Geronimo, My Life: The Autobiography of Geronimo, 1905.)
It isn't racist to hate northern aggressors. Stars and Bars forever!
Lipstick on a kosher pig...
Novorussia... same story...
I am in agreement with you. Some of these folks are ignorant and it is just a big FU to the others. I totally support their free speech rights. Texas knows they have free speech rights, but they must look non-racist or feel the wrath of race politics in America. It was kind of smart move by them. Why? The come of looking non-racist and they know the Supreme Court will defend the Sons' of Confederate Veterans free speech.
The problem with the battle flag is that it was used as a symbol by segregationists and the Dixiecrats. The battle flag wasn't flown above South Carolina's state capitol until 1960/61 and Georgia didn't incorporate it into their flag until the late 1950s. Waving the battle flag was how many white segregationists responded to the civil rights movement. And Mississippi put it on their flag, which is the same flag they have today, until the 1890s during the heyday of Jim Crow. So it most definitely is a racist symbol. People are just ignorant of it.
It's not the stars and bars. It's the Confederate battle flag. There is a difference. Educate yourself.
It's not a racist interpretation. The battle flag was in fact the symbol of white segregationists in the South.
I normally consider the Bonnie Blue as the Confederate National flag.
Keep in mind AMERICAN flags are getting banned on certain days in certain parts of the USA. (and the Supreme Court just refused to hear the case). How long will it take the blame America first crowd to do to the American flag what they have done to flags of the Confederacy...? Hint: how much longer does Obama have in office...
Sometimes I think people fly this flag just to tell others...."fook you and your rules and restrictions.... I can do whatever I want to do"
You write about the Confederate battle flag and those who decry it as racist.
Yet those same progressives will wear a Che Guevara shirt or a Mao hat without the least self awareness. Mass murdering totalitarians of the world, unite!
It is the Stars and Bars I'm talking about Lyle. You know, the very first flag of the Confederate States of America. There was no flag officially named named The Confederate Battle Flag. Maybe you meant the Stainless Banner. There's a difference. Educate yourself.
It is the Flag of the Confederate states.
One of the first things I bought for my dorm room in the fall of 95 at Ole Miss was an all cloth 8'x10' confederate battle flag for 90 bucks. Inexpensive by today's standards. The next year, outside pressure being too great, the school banned flags, citing safety concerns of the sticks to which the thousands of confederate battle flags flew at each home game. It was absolutely beautiful. And we flew them for the same reason you stated above; not hate, not racism. But, pride of our heritage, especially our unique culture, perseverance, determination. Now that flag hangs on the ceiling in my garage. It's also odd when someone accuses me of racism upon seeing it, and then they see my wife of another race, my mixed-race son, and so on. Only you know what's in your heart or in your mind. Fly whatever flag you want. I do. Be free.
Exactly. All one has to do (if they think slavery was not a major factor) is read the 2nd secession statement of South Carolina.
No, you were talking about the Confederate battle flag since that is the flag the blogger is talking about. And no, I am not talking about the stainless banner, because the stainless banner was a national flag and not a battle flag.
Wrong again Lyle. I came here from Ace and his post displays the Stars and Bars flag I referred to.
No - sorry, that's not how it went. No one was "duped" - and the majority of "rich slaveowners" were Northerners, in reality.
At the final surrender, there was never any "promise" made - nor was any even demanded - that the battle flags must be abandoned. The military units of the Confederacy - instead - furled and cased their banners, and bore them away to places of honor. They were defeated in battle, and commanded by the victors to be disbanded - then sent home.
You should read some actual history; you really should.
Also not true - the political rhetoric was, instead, that of defiance against being commanded to relinquish Southerners' rights as free men and women because of Northern demands to do so.
You continue to ignore actual history...
I've never understood the pride aspect. They lost. If anything, the flags should be a reminder that despite having forced, free labor fueling the economies in their states, they still couldn't win the war. Tell a southerner this and they'll tell you about how they won most of the battles. Apparently, they misunderstood the war for a Skins tournament.
Slavery was an issue, yes; the Southern economy, at that point in time, was dependent, to a very large extent, upon its continuation in some ways. Yet - the "institution" 1) was preserved (by many, especially the large industrial interests), protected (by law[s]) and often-enough defended by Northerners nearly as strongly as by anyone in the South. It was only made a major factor latterly - during the War - by the actions of Lincoln and his Congress, primarily as a military tactic...and there was no ending of slavery in the North by Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, the embodiment of said tactic; the Proclamation abolished slavery only in the States that were "in rebellion" - that had seceded. Slavery continued - legally - in the Northern states until well after the end of the War. You can look it up...
You apparently either misread - or, at least, misunderstood - South Carolina's statement of secession.
Circular arguments are so trite.
You mean like a flag that stood for legal slavery for 8 decades? The US flag sunshine? I find you most offensive and ill educated.
Nice post but the flag represents those principles that allowed ratification of the Constitution. Three states demanded the right to leave the union for any reason if they were to authorize tyhe Constitution. Guess which ones they were? And this little fact demonstrates how offensive and despotic Lincoln's attack on the South was.
Did you graduate from Havard Law with Obama?
I guess that explains why four states left the union after Lincoln's declaration for armed force against the South and why Lincoln overthrew the elected leguislatures of the two border states that left the union. It also explains why he illegally created West Virginia via seccession from Virginia. I guess Rob graduated with Zach.
Guess it had nothing to do with the increase in tarriffs by 400% in the two years prior to the outbreak of the war and Lincoln. I imagine if a 400% tax increase was directed solely at New England those peaceful folks would do nothing but behave like choirboys just as they did in the war of 1812. The South just followed New England's example, a fact Lincoln just never had the heart to acknowledge. Witch burning so near and dear to Yankee hearts.
So using your logic so was the American flag, right troll? Its amazing the blinders that the followers of Lenin employ.
Yeah, I don't believe you. And if you don't know the difference between a Confederate battle flag and the stainless banner, I suspect you didn't know what flag the Stars and Bars is.
And you write about "northern aggressors". Lol. Big tip off to your ignorance.
Yes, the United States flag can be viewed as a racist flag. People actually view it this way. Did you not see some of the protestors at Ferguson burn it?
And I am a capitalist. I haven't said anything in support of Lenin. Would you like to point out where I do, for all the readers of this blog?
You don't have to believe me Lyle. The post I refer to is still up at Ace of Spades. Stars and Bars forever!
Right....people will seek offense to anything, often as a means to shut down debate.
The Confederate Battle Flag is part of our heritage, and should be looked on as such. It is part of who we are. I hate it when people with good, ill, or misguided intentions try to rewrite our history to fit their narrative by trying to suppress something.
Who we are individually as a person consists of our persona (who we present as our image to others), and our dark side. Integrate them both and you have a whole person. Suppressing things to fit the narrative is not healthy for us individually or as a civilization.
Speaking of flags, I do like our Alaska State Flag. It has a dark blue background with the gold stars of Big Dipper constellation and Polaris---the North Star. There are are a lot of good flags out there---and a lot of good stories----if you are willing to listen to them.
You can say that again!
Unfortunately, mx, it's gotten so that anything you do is something some asshole, somewhere, is going to be offended about. So since you're going to be made out to be an asshole, in order to give some BIGGER asshole power over you, you might as well "lay back and enjoy it"... and decide: "Fuck it. If they're going to treat me like an asshole no matter what I do, I might as well be an asshole intentionally, as far as they are concerned. In short, from now on, I'm not giving a single solitary fuck what they think, including being deliberately rude to them at every opportunity."
The Death Penalty offers a certain freedom of action -- what more can they do to you?
Hey!! Hey!! Hey!! Don't try and group all people flying the Muslim Flag (ok, it's a figurative flag...) as being terrorists!! There are lots of Muslims who aren't terrorists!!
Wait....
What was this topic about, again?
Oh, yeah, lumping all white people into the same guilty guilty guilty grouping, in order to get power over them.
Freedom begins when you tell Ms Grundy to go fly a
kiteflagWould that more did so.
You're an invading troll. Everyone knows this. And is more amused at your stupid lack of more than a single note to yammer about.
Fúck off kíke...
He is free...